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Author Topic: Selecting a CMS and MODx as strategic differentiator for our European company...  (Read 5491 times)
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Tom
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« on: May 09, 2006, 02:29 AM »

My very first post on Modx forum concerns the still ongoing process to select a CMS for our company. We design small sailing boats and sell them all over Europe via a dealer channel. Each dealer obviously has it's own website with own look and feel.  And we like to help them with all available information on our boats but displayed to their users in their own 'template'. And that all displayed in one of the more than 20 languages.

So there you go, the first major demands on our wish list for a CMS are:

1.  use a template based on webuser profile (auto login from dealre's website) or maybe even based on originating URL
2.  multiple languages (we expect over 100 pages per language)
3.  strong separation content (plain HTML) x navigation structure (php) x templates (css)
4.  Later the site would be extended with a booking service as dealers use our boat also to charter to guests

With these two in mind, plus the hidden desire to design a site with great graphics, we started out reviewing several Open source CMS systems. For a quick scan we relied on:

1 - http://www.opensourcecms.com and http://www.cmsmatrix.org
2 - the CMS home website - is it clear, organized?
3 - Google: how many hits, would give an indication on activity
4 - the forums...

Finally we downloaded Joomla, Drupal, Xaraya, CMS Made Simple and Modx. Installed them on our host ( NetworkSolutions ) .

Quick conclusions:

 - Joomla - good looking, great community but no logical structure, templates structure not clean
 - Drupla - versatile but relies too much on people who make their living out of programming c.q. who thrive by complexity
 - Xaraya - looked promising but...big...very big to upload and the user interface did not match our taste
 - CMS Made Simple - liked it a lot, but seemed a little immature
 - Modx - compact, clean (can't you join forces with CMS made simple?)

So,  we started playing with Modx:

1 - manager user interface is good....although:
         * it keeps re-building the page tree and that is painfully slow
         * Menu items are very difficult to sort (what about http://demo.script.aculo.us/ajax/sortable_elements )?

2 - excellent separation of content x appearance
3 - oops - no multiple languages - a show stopper
         * duplicating the page tree does not make sense: we have 100 pages x 20 languages ?
         * So we tried to add a fields like content_nl, content_fr, content_de but stopped there as it did not seem wise to start interfering in the database without proper knowledge and some community feedback on how to do this
4 - oops - no template per user only per page - a show stopper
         * simple field per (web)user would help specifying the preferred template. And the possibility to leave template field empty on a page so that Modx knows it should use the user defined setting.  (A 'page  template override switch'  per user could help as well: 'Admin' would choose the current manager template, and it would enable us to give our site translators their own manager subset)

All in all, Modx is encouraging enough for us to spend this time writing this to you. Only if we would have multiple language instances for pages and user specific templates, we can start rolling!

Thanks for the patience for sticking with me in this long post,
Tom


PS.  While playing we built a little structure and, shame on us, even modified DropMenu without knowing it is one of the core snippets (sorry): we added a parentClass for every <li> that has children so to allow a nice little arrow in a menu item that has children (inspired by http://www.nickrigby.com/examples/dropdown3/index.htm ). Well, maybe DropMenu could do that as it is, but the settings of DropMenu seemed so complex that it seemed easier to modify the code (although this was my first PHP program). Promise, I will not touch it again Wink
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rthrash
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2006, 07:59 AM »

MODx probably won't be the right solution for you for a few more months. If you can wait until then you'll get everything you wish and a heck of a lot more. If not, then Drupal may be the right choice for you now.
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Tom
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2006, 08:54 AM »

Thank you Ryan. We aim to go live around August, so I hope we can stick to Modx.

Tom
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OpenGeek
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2006, 09:54 AM »

So,  we started playing with Modx:
1 - manager user interface is good....although:
         * it keeps re-building the page tree and that is painfully slow
         * Menu items are very difficult to sort (what about http://demo.script.aculo.us/ajax/sortable_elements )?
2 - excellent separation of content x appearance
3 - oops - no multiple languages - a show stopper
         * duplicating the page tree does not make sense: we have 100 pages x 20 languages ?
         * So we tried to add a fields like content_nl, content_fr, content_de but stopped there as it did not seem wise to start interfering in the database without proper knowledge and some community feedback on how to do this
4 - oops - no template per user only per page - a show stopper
         * simple field per (web)user would help specifying the preferred template. And the possibility to leave template field empty on a page so that Modx knows it should use the user defined setting.  (A 'page  template override switch'  per user could help as well: 'Admin' would choose the current manager template, and it would enable us to give our site translators their own manager subset)

All in all, Modx is encouraging enough for us to spend this time writing this to you. Only if we would have multiple language instances for pages and user specific templates, we can start rolling!

Thanks for the patience for sticking with me in this long post,
Tom

PS.  While playing we built a little structure and, shame on us, even modified DropMenu without knowing it is one of the core snippets (sorry): we added a parentClass for every <li> that has children so to allow a nice little arrow in a menu item that has children (inspired by http://www.nickrigby.com/examples/dropdown3/index.htm ). Well, maybe DropMenu could do that as it is, but the settings of DropMenu seemed so complex that it seemed easier to modify the code (although this was my first PHP program). Promise, I will not touch it again Wink

Tom, first, thanks for the detailed information about your review of MODx.  Now let me address each of your points:

1) Manager interface is being redesigned for 1.0 release and 1.0 will get rid of the problematic and painfully slow refreshing of the tree, and there is already an Ajax page reordering tool being prepared to include in the upcoming 0.9.5 release.

2) Definitely one of the reasons I chose to get involved in this project.

3) 1.0 refactoring will introduce three concepts that will help with i18n and l10n, contexts (isolation of content into a section, subdomain, add-on domain, etc. within the same physical hosting space), cultures (all of the properties that help define presentation preferences for a specific culture, including language preference, date formatting, currency formatting, etc.), and content revisioning by culture (providing multiple versions of content to be presented to specific cultures when available, and providing rollback capabilities, and this includes being able to localize the main content of a page, a snippet, a chunk, a TV, etc.).

4) There are lots of approaches to this; and I think this can be easily accomplished with a plugin or snippets, depending on which approach better fits your full requirements.

P.S. The core snippets are provided so you can customize them, but duplicate them and rename them when modifying the core ones or you might overwrite your fancy customizations on the next upgrade that includes a DropMenu snippet Smiley

That said, I do not have a specific timeframe for release of 1.0, but I hope to have it into a usable form in the next 60 days.
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Jason Coward
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Tom
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2006, 02:01 PM »

Thanks for the reply, Jason. Enough encouragement to keep going.  Seems that 1.0 and some snippet/plugin studying would bring us to where we want  Smiley

Tom
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sottwell
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2006, 11:41 PM »

And please, do share your modifications! We love variety  Wink
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Tom
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 04:11 AM »

For sure we will do, Susan. Let us first get the bugs out and then we will post it on some proper place in the Forum Smiley

Tom
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Andy Ayre
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 04, 2006, 03:28 PM »

I use the ChangeTemplate plugin which allows you to append &tempate=n to any URL. This way you can dynamically change the template. So if you have distributor x then you can tell them to access marketing page for product y using: http://www.foo.com/index.php?id=a&template=b.

HTH

Andy
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Tom
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 05, 2006, 01:23 PM »

Excellent, Andy! Thanks, this is what we've been looking for Smiley

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 18, 2006, 07:40 AM »

Dear Modx members,

As in the post of May this year, our company now commences a new CMS system. It will including reservation for hotels and boat as well as on line sales in several languages. We still favor Modx... however this weeks a little hesitant to continue. In May Jason / OpenGeek -from the core team I presume- mentioned a time frame for new features:


(...)

1) Manager interface is being redesigned for 1.0 release and 1.0 will get rid of the problematic and painfully slow refreshing of the tree, and there is already an Ajax page reordering tool being prepared to include in the upcoming 0.9.5 release.

(...)
That said, I do not have a specific timeframe for release of 1.0, but I hope to have it into a usable form in the next 60 days.

We are now a little concerned about the big time difference between the estimate and realisation of the new releases. We realize this is all volunteer  work but that does not mean we should introduce too much time between an estimate and reality. Please give us some confidence. 
In any case, if continuation is the right thing to do, we like to contribute to the Modx initiative. (www.weekendforsail.com for a very preliminary preview of what we am for.

Tom

Ps  CMS Made Simple might be an alternative if needed. They have their v1.0 out this week. In addition, they are tempting us with a Hospitality Reservation module. Does anybody have some comparision info with Modx about it's CMS capabilities?
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2006, 07:53 AM by Tom » Logged
rthrash
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 18, 2006, 08:29 AM »

I guess when you're a big company like Microsoft, your releases never slip either? Tongue

Next release is 0.9.5 which is in active bug-squishing mode and nearing completion, and will be a tremendous leap forward. From a features standpoint it's definitely probably worthy of a 1.5 version number, but it will not include a unified permissions system, so it's being arbitrarily held to < 1.0. 

From what I understand, CMS Made System is a great solution indeed. But I think it tends to lean a bit more towards being a CMS, whereas MODx leans more towards being a true custom web application framework. You know what you'll get with 1.0 with CMS Simple, and it's a nice feature set indeed. With MODx 1.0, you're going to get some amazing multi-cultural (done) capabilities, robust versioning (done), context switching (done) and workflow tools, not to mention a web services framework, database independence and more. You can have a peek at the 1.0 code base anytime if you're interested. Heck you might even be able to contribute towards it!

Regardless, good luck in your decision-making process. Hard to argue with someone doing a big part of the work for you!
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davidm
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 18, 2006, 09:21 AM »

Ooops, seems like Ryan beat me to the clock when I was writing this loooonnnng messsage... Editing inconsistent part out right now !

Hi Tom, it's only normal to ask where we stand as far as MODx development is concerned, given the scope of your project I would say even the current build is really up to the task (though you'd have to give more details to really check that out thouroughy).

Now, about the 0.9.5 release, it was originally set to be released at a much earlier date it's true. For various reasons, we chose not to go forward with the intial plan, as we went along we realize it would be better to delay it for the time being, so that everything we had in mind would fit perfectly (we set high goals for MODx, and that's also why I joined, most systems are so "mainstream" thinking kind of tool...). If anything, we might have been too transparent about our plans, too early. The thing is, MODx development, even with the delay, is pretty fast if you look at the changelogs there are much added to each development cycle.

This will be even more true of the upcoming release (now we can use the word with certainty, since we are ironing the 0.9.5 beta for a release) : I'll let dev team members give a time frame and go into more detail about what is new but I can tell you there are major changes there that will push MODx flexibility even further Smiley  

On a side note, let me say that version numbering is something that you can't compare from one project to another. I rember back at my Textpattern days where the 1.0 was expected, it was dubbed 4.0 after a series of 1.16gamma, 1.17gamma... etc. Those gamma were as stable as any final release in most opensource communities.

Anyway, my point is, 0.9.2 could have been a 1.0 if you consider :
- that it's stable (almost never had to do any support for my 5 clients powered by MODx)
- that it has a rich feature set : not only standard features but also quite advanced stuff (not seen elsewhere, at that)
- that the community is strong and vital, with a growing user base

Really, 0.9.5 will be a major step up on top of that, turning MODx into what I believe to be one of the very top solutions around.

Anyway, CMS Made Simple is in beta for its 1.0 and they truly made some nice improvements, and they have an increasing number of extensions too. I know, since I sometimes use CMSMS for smaller projects. This being said, MODx is more than a CMS, it's a content management framework. You can build custom applications with it, and you can build them faster and easier than with other systems.

You can do things with MODx you simply can't (or at least not without serious additionnal development or heavy tweaking) do with CMSMS. Consider data structure : there is no equivalent for MODx template variable in CMSMS.

Most systems have a rigid way to structure content. Usually, content has a limited structure: Title, Summary, Body. Extensions (plugins, modules or the likes) sometimes offer to manage different types of content (images, products, job offers…): but again, they force you to use a predefined content structure which does not necessarily fit your particular needs. When they do offer a way to create custom content fields, they are either limited in number or in types of fields.

With MODx you don't suffer from those limitations :

  • You can create any type of custom content fields: text, rich text, number, date, images, checkbox, dropdown, email, url… with no limitations whatsoever. The best part: you can do so directly from the backend, without ever having to alter the database structure manually.
  • Each custom field is linked to a given template: that’s why the custom fields are called Template Variables in MODx. It allows you to define which templates can use the custom variables, and possibly define several content structure if needed.
  • You can use, style and place those content field easily: a simple tag, [*my_template_variable*], and you can display the content wherever you like, the way you want it displayed. Better yet, if you need to make it available for frontend editing, just add a # before the variable name [*#my_template_variable*].

With this capabilities, I have built a company directory, a catalog for a travel agency, and I am finishing a big project with lots of custom content (more than 80 custom fields, 400 pages, some privates some public, lots of custome querries...etc). It's really a great tool Grin

Those are part of the reasons I use MODx when my clients need customization. I have gone the "pre-packaged" way (e.g use a ready-to-go module or extension of some kind) before . I ended up loosing a lot of time tweaking those modules to get them to do what my client needed, and on top of that, looking like my client want it. All in all, while it might seem counter-intuitive, it's easier to build something with MODx than install a module in say, Joomla. Templating is so much more flexible.

Now, there are case when customization is not an issue : when you deal with "standard" content, modules are great because they provide a quick and efficient solution. More often than not though, you'll have to do at least a bit of customization to have those modules styled as you want them to be. Plus, if you need you website to evolve and add custom features in the future, it's better not to have to switch to a new system... That's why I now use MODx for almost every project, except maybe the smallest ones.

To end this particularly long message, I have looked for the Hospitality Reservation Module in CMSMS Forge, but didn't find it... how close is it to a release ?
I would advise testing it before making a choice. That would also mean you already know what data structure you need and that this particular module can fit the bill...






« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2006, 09:39 AM by davidm » Logged

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silent
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 18, 2006, 10:02 AM »

Bravo David!
Very concise and detailled explanation why MODx is better!
(add that to your marketing material!)  Wink
Just want to add a point to the delays: It's true that the dev-team sometimes seems to devalue the current version of MODx by announcing new versions with features that everybody likes to have (if everybody needs them, is quite a different issue), and - even worse - they do so twice: with 0.95 and 1.0/Tattoo.
In a marketing view it would be better, to have a stronger emphasis on all the things that have already been accomplished with MODx. The forums here are very development-focused and as such they are not an ideal platform for marketing.
Some success-stories on modxcms.com would be great!

regards!
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2006, 10:11 AM by silent » Logged
davidm
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 18, 2006, 10:18 AM »

Bravo David! Very concise and detailled explanation why MODx is better! (add that to your marketing material!)  Wink

Actually part of it was from my marketing material Tongue
I wouldn't know about the "concise" part of the compliment Wink

Quote from: silent
Just want to add a point to the delays: It's true that the dev-team sometimes seems to devalue the current version of MODx by announcing new versions with features that anyone likes to have (if anyone needs them, is quite another issue), and - even worse - they do so twice: with 0.95 and 1.0/Tattoo. In a marketing view it would be better, to have a stronger emphasis on all the things that have already been accomplished with MODx. The forums here are very development-focused and as such they are not an ideal platform for marketing.Some success-stories on modxcms.com would be great! regards!

About delays : Already said what I had to about 0.9.5 but when did you see any estimate about 1.0 release ??

To close the matter, let's just say this : you won't find quicker development pace elsewhere, nor will you find this kind of cutting-edge piece of code elsewhere, period. I think the dev team has a great vision of what web apps should be (at least, that's one I very much agree with !), and it's sure cutting edge stuff that we have here, for FREE !!! Every day that goes by, I am thinking how lucky I am to benefit from those great ideas and concepts into a great tool built by a passionnate and talented group of people. But maybe that's just me Tongue

I can see your point, but I don't think we devalue the current version of MODx. Let's just say the idea behind MODx might be hindered by the Eto legacy (not that Eto was or is bad software, don't be mistaken...). I think we are oriented toward the future, and never satisfied by what is not satisfying... there is this continous driving force that you can feel there, "striving to achieve the vision". That's why 1.0 is a separate branch, and a total rewrite : the ideas are the same, but free of "old code" that was created with other goals in mind, partly by other people. In a way, I see 0.9.5 as almost the farthest thing that could be done with the Eto legacy.

1.0 will bring lots of new possiblities and features, and we are all very excited by this !

Last but not least : success stories are a great idea Grin





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.: nodeo.net : Pour un web libre, moderne et ouvert ! :: david-molliere.net : Suivez en "live" mes expérimentations et billets sur les CMS et autres applications web :.

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MODx est l'outil idéal pour les developpeurs et webdesigners qui cherchent un framework de gestion de contenu hautement flexible et performant, tout en étant simple d'accès pour les utilisateurs finaux.

Config : Apache 2.2.8 - MySQL 5.0.45 - PHP 5.2.6 | Debian 4.0 (Etch)

Réalisations sous MODx : | pargade-notaires.fr | soleil.info | gican.asso.fr | michelez-notaires.com | amadom.gerondicap.com | jocelyne-violet.net
silent
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 18, 2006, 10:41 AM »

"devalue" was not the right word to choose here, and the "seems" didn't help much either.
What I exactly meant was:
The announcements of "cooler" future versions might keep potential users from using the current version.
That's all! I simply adore the work, the ideas and the attitudes of the dev-team! Don't get me wrong here, otherwise I'd be very sad!  Wink
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